Last month, we recorded a little webcast featuring usual hosts VeVe and Hanz, along with special guest Ursa Fierce. During this webcast, Ursa talked about some of her first impressions with getting into the wrestling scene. VeVe and Hanz also commented on their early entries into the wrestling scene.
Presented here is a LONG transcript of the relevant dialogue. I will attempt to title the various topic-shift sections in case you'd like to skim it.
Here is the hour-long video recording, and below that is the LONG text transcript of the relevant, non-tangent portions.
Here is the hour-long video recording, and below that is the LONG text transcript of the relevant, non-tangent portions.
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Ursa's First Impressions
Ursa's First Impressions
VeVe:
So, we were going to speak a little bit about being a new wrestler, new-ish, coming into the session and video world now. It's cool because we have someone who is experiencing being new to wrestling now, and 2 people who've experienced a while ago and can refer to earlier experiences for a bit more perspective now. [...]
How are you finding entering the wrestling scene, Ursa?
Ursa:
Can we break it down?
VeVe:
So how did it come to pass that you got involved with this anyway?
Ursa:
It's a been like a slow approach for me. I joke that I'm very cautious about doing things, and then I jump in 100%.
With wrestling, I went to a beginner workshop a couple years ago at least, and before that I had a boyfriend who was a wrestler, and we would tussle around a bit, which was really fun. But also I got really annoyed that I couldn't really match him at all, which was somewhat fun, but at a point I was like, eh, hm, I'm tired of this. So I went to a beginner workshop that you all were having, and it was crazy to me.
It was crazy. I grew up as a theatre kind, as a musician, as a swimmer, which is the least contact of all sports, you're not even in contact with the ground.
Anyhow, so it was just crazy touching people in new ways, and having my weight be an advantage, where in other sports, and in life as a woman, you try to make your body smaller, not overwhelm people. So being in wrestling, especially this kind of wrestling, is a total flip of the script where that's concerned, and that's been pretty fun.
Hanz:
Were you nervous about it at first, going from the beginner workshop and jumping into the videos and having a public persona?
Ursa:
Yeah, totally, I was terrified. Just going to the first workshop was kind of terrifying. And then I was like, oh these people are nice, I don't know about this wrestling thing, but I like the people. And then I kind of slowly came back, once in a while, for over a year, and then...
The video making I was nervous about, but even more than that, once I started practicing and then I had my first competitive match, that was maybe the most nervous I'd been so far. And it was against -- it was from the live event last fall -- with Kari. Well, that was that one I was --
Hanz:
That was your first one?
Ursa:
Well, first, I fought Aqua X before that. But she's very small and inexperienced, so it was like this will probably be ok. And it was still hard match.
But then I'd been training a bit and I was going to be fighting Kari. And at that point I felt like I actually had some skin in the game. 'Cause I was like I know a couple things, like if I lose this, then that'll be terrible. And it's two 8 or 10 minute rounds. I think it was 8 that day. And I was like, oh, that's really long. And it's live, so there's that added pressure. So I was super nervous for that.
VeVe:
That's like how you felt going into the Aqua match vs the Kari match. But then doing the Aqua match vs the Kari match, how does that compare?
Ursa:
The Aqua match -- she was very squirmy and energetic, and I had to keep moving the whole time. And I learned a lot. I think we both learned a lot through doing during the match, which I see happening with other beginning wrestlers: someone tries a thing, and you're like oh that worked for them, and so you try it on them. Or you're getting somewhere with one thing, and then they adjust. So I feel like I learned a lot, but had to keep the momentum up.
By the time I wrestled Kari, she had already wrestled Sweetie Dreams, I think, and maybe someone else also? And she was pretty beat [tired]. So, I went in really, really nervous, and then as we got going, I was like, oh, she's a lot lower energy at this point, so how do I navigate that? She was doing a lot of turtle defense [on elbows and knees in a ball], which I had never seen before.
She's like 280 lbs maybe, so to break down that kind of turtle, I was just hanging on her, like I don't know what I'm doing. But trying to work what I'd learned without -- I don't know -- she's a visitor, she's visiting, I don't want to make it horrible for her. If that makes sense. So, they were different matches, for sure.
How about you guys, do you remember?
Hanz and VeVe Give Their First Impressions
Hanz:
I remember. I wore a mask for the first couple years. That's how nervous I was about doing videos.
VeVe:
Yeah, the first video match that I did was against Veronica Vicious, who was a founding member of the original Doom Maidens, back in the day.
When we first started out -- doing videos was something that Hanz had to be our consultant about, because we hadn't quite figured out how to do that fro ourselves. So, Hanz was the cameraman of the hour. And we didn't have a format, we were just going to try this for the first time ever, and we went, I think, for 30 minutes straight, or maybe there was a short break. But it was exhausting, it was wild.
Veronica and I were both really new to wrestling at the time, and something that I think people only learn later is conserving energy at all. So that was 100% full tilt the whole time, just like murderous.
And I think, you know, it was probably a really exciting match, looking back, but it's also one that I'm really glad has mostly sort of disappeared from the internet because one of the things I also hadn't really learned yet in my novicedom was: I wore this awful tank top, tie dye, and I had an awful haircut. It was very learning experience.
Ursa:
Had you been training BJJ or any sort of wrestling before that?
VeVe:
That was before I started training formally, but when we were just first founding Doom Maidens, we were doing our own practice sessions. So there were a couple people who knew a bit more than I did. So we were showing up for these little get-together self-training. ... So, we knew just that much, a little bit.
Ursa:
Just enough to be dangerous to each other?
VeVe:
I think maybe knowing almost anything can help be a little less dangerous. I know the first couple times I wrestled I did jump in with zero training whatsoever, and one of the first things I thought: I should start learning stuff to be less dangerous.
On Learning and Improving and Trying New Things
Ursa:
Yeah. It's funny how just a little bit of knowledge takes you a long way. My first-FIRST competitive match was with Sweetie Dreams, and I had no idea what I was in for.
VeVe:
Oh, I remember. That was shocking to you.
Ursa: It was shocking to me! Cause I had only wrestled her before in practice, and wrestled other people who were very kindly calibrating their skill level to mine. And so, I was like, wait, but it's a video -- you actually use all your skill? I thought it was going to be acting. Just a little bit. So I didn't know how much I didn't know.
She got me with so many smothers, so I was like, oh my god, I can't breathe, rather than I shall turn my head now and be able to breathe.
VeVe:
That's a great thing about doing matches: you learn what you need to work on. It's also a great thing about when you're new: you can learn something every day that's super helpful. Whereas, when you've been doing it for a long time, it takes so much more investment to make small improvement. When you know nothing, everything is a giant improvement. It's a fun time. You really see advancement quickly.
Hanz:
It's true. At first you're just improving by leaps and bounds, and then it gets to a point where you really have to study. Heh.
Ursa:
And you're also just improving incrementally at that point, too, right? It's like [hand gesture curve]?
Hanz:
I've still got plenty to learn.
VeVe: [to Hanz]
We tease you that you neither train nor ever change anything.
Hanz:
I don't.
VeVe:
So you can get better at the 2 things you do.
Hanz:
Yep. Scissors and arm triangles.
VeVe:
You're the same wrestler every time.
Hanz:
But they work.
Ursa:
You just rely on everyone else to change.
Hanz:
I'm the video game play who plays the fighting game and just hits "B" [button] all the time. Just like a constant low kick, and the other person gets pissed, like: why don't you do any real moves? Well, why don't you stop the low kick first? [...]
Ursa:
So Hanz, you started masked?
Hanz:
I did. That was the only way I could convince myself to do videos and put them out there. Since then, I've actually gone and taken most of those down and away. After a while, I didn't like the way the mask looked, and as a fan as well of mixed videos, I always like mixed videos where you can see both people's faces, and see the emotions of the match. The mask was kind of taking away from that.
Ursa:
I've also heard people say that if the man is masked and is beaten, then he has no skin in the game. Right? You can't be properly humiliated if you're masked.
Hanz:
It's like a shield to hide behind. No just out there. But yeah, I finally decided to do one without the mask. It was actually for you guys, against Orlandoe, and I remember being really nervous about it, like, oh, I'm going to do a non-masked one. So we did the match, and I saw it when it was done, watched it, then I was like, yes, this looks better, I like it better. I'm just going to do this from now on. But it's scary at first. A little bit.
VeVe:
What was the tipping or trigger point thing that made you say: I'm going to try this?
Hanz:
I think I just got to the point where I would see -- cause I was doing videos for my own store at that point -- and they all had the mask on, and I would watch them back, and I would be like: I would like this video better, like -- I like stuff about my early videos, but the one thing I would change is I wish I wasn't wearing the mask. And also, it was hard to breathe in that thing. And I would breathe loudly. It was kind of Darth Vader-ish. So.... which was kind of distracting as well. So I was just like, you know, I'm going try it without the mask and see how it looks.
Ursa:
You've never gone back...
Hanz:
Nope.
Ursa:
Did you ever think you'd be making the kind of videos you've been making lately?
Hanz:
Ha. No, I didn't. So that's another whole step. Completely unmasked. That was actually less scary than taking the mask off the face. That was a much less scary step than removing the mask originally.
VeVe:
There's nothing more you can do about identity after you've shown the face.
Hanz:
Yeah. The mask is like your face is out there, and this is what everyone sees. [...]
Ursa:
With the sexier (unclothed) stuff -- I would love to feel like I could do that, but there's so much stigma around it, I think especially for women. There are plenty of women around who do it and are amazing, but, personally, that feel like a scarier step for me than doing regular sexy stuff with clothes.
Body Positivity, Confidence, and Being Yourself
Hanz:
You're always afraid people are going to shame you for it, right? But it can be a very body-positive kind of thing. That's the way I think about it.
Just sort of, growing up, it was always this shame with nudity or eroticism. And to get to just do it and put it out there is kind of freeing in a way. Just be like: no, this is a good thing, and I shouldn't have to be afraid that someone's going to make me feel ashamed of it. Like they shouldn't be able to make me feel ashamed of it.
So. Yeah. I thought about it for a long time: do I really want to do this? It's kind of a big step, and once I came to the conclusion, it's like: you grew up feeling ashamed of this, so this is kind of like stepping away from that, which is nice.
Ursa:
It can be empowering. Just talking about body-positivity, a lot of this wrestling has been therapeutic for me in a way, in that I'm like, yeah, this is my body, and it's not just thin, fit who can show their bodies in bikinis. I can also, and it's going to be wonderful. And it's out there for the world, and that's how it is. Fully own it. It can be good.
VeVe:
You can get a totally realistic assessment "by doing" of what you're body can do. And here's how everything feels, and here are my abilities, and here's me up against another person. And I think a lot of so many assumptions are out there. Even just today, after I've been doing this for some many years, I went into a session and got: "you're pretty strong for a girl." Just "by doing," people find out --
Ursa:
Have you seen my muscles? Have you seen them? They're still muscles, even though I have tits. It's crazy.
VeVe:
They work, and they move, and they do things. And by wrestling, you get rid of some of those assumptions. I can't do this. I can! I'm doing this right now.
Ursa:
I think it's something that you've challenged me a lot on. I'm like: my body doesn't do that! And you're like: just maybe keep trying. And then I'm like: oh, I can do it. It just took practice. Because my body's used to sitting at a desk and not squiggling under a human.
Also, it's so nice to get all of the positive reinforcements from fans. So when I meet people being like: oh my god, you're so gorgeous. And I'm like: yes I am, and people in the mid-west never appreciated me. I'm like: I was wasted on everyone else, and now I'm finally getting the recognition I feel like I deserved all along, and it's so nice. It's so nice getting that. So, thank you. And I'm like: I know, I know, and it's nice that you know too.
VeVe:
That's one thing I always say when I have a muscle worship fan. I'll get a couple questions, like: do you like being worshipped? I'm like: yeah, of course! And: "I so like your muscles" or "I so like your body." and I'm like: That's really nice, because I do! And I put a lot of work into doing it. So it's nice to know other people like what I like about myself. And that's pretty cool.
Ursa:
And I feel like in this work too, it's sort of a reflection -- and I'm going to get a little philosophical here -- but I feel like there's a fan for everything, there's a fan for every body type. Your fans may not be the same as my fans. But really, the more you are yourself, people like it. And I feel like that plays out in the real world too, in that you're like: well, if there's everyone who likes my body, maybe I don't need to try to be so one way or another in the world, and I can just be myself and somebody will like that.
It's a nice little playing out of that theory. Because people talk about, you know, oh, well, just be yourself, go all Hamlet, "This about all, to thine own self be true," but it's nice in this work to actually see that play out. And the more you are yourself, the more you share of yourself, people are like oh my god, you're amazing, and getting that immediate feedback, you're like, huh, yeah, all right, great!
Hanz:
Do you actually find in doing this that the confidence [you build] -- do you find that crossing over into your non-wrestling day-to-day life?
Ursa:
Yeah, I think it feed back and forth, you know. I think me feeling confident and good about myself allows me to do wrestling. And I think the more I do it, the more feedback I get that comes back and feeds the other. So I think it all kind of builds. And it gives me more confidence, and having more confidence gives me more wrestling mojo --
Hanz:
I've told a few people that part of the thing that made me jump off -- because I've always wanted to do this and try this, but I was always hesitant and nervous -- but the thing I always think to myself: when I get to the end of my life, when I'm in my deathbed, my worst fear would be looking back on my life and thinking there are all these things I wanted to try and never did it because I was too scared. If I could be in that moment and say: there are all these things I wanted to try and I tried then, even though I was scared and I did it anyway, at that point I would be happy and look back on my life.
Ursa:
No regrets.
Hanz:
Yeah, that was a faster way to say that.
Ursa:
I feel like another thing I've been learning in my own life and in wrestling is to deal with discomfort. Which I feel like in the US and Western civilization we're taught that if something's uncomfortable, you shy away from it, you don't do it. And just learning to be like: ah, I'm being choked right now, or, like in our match, I'm being body scissored right now, very hard, and I could tap right now, or if I just chill out, I could probably get out of this. So, that's a nice --
Hanz:
You're very resistant to my body scissors.
Ursa:
Yes! I'm so happy. I actually said I was injured from that match, and I was afraid it was from the body scissors, but it was just a muscle thing. But at first I was like: oh no, did I resist too much? I just resisted appropriately.
Hanz:
I always try to put those things on slow, you know. So, rib stuff...
Ursa:
I'm not saying it was pleasant. So, when you put the video out, and people buy it, and you listen to the noises I was making, I think you'll be able to tell that was not pleasant. I was like, what are these noises coming out of me? They sound really sad and unhappy.
VeVe:
Then afterwards, maybe some happy noises for escaping...
Ursa:
Yeah. Like so many people have fallen victim to your body scissors. You know, it's kind of a cheap shot. It's very effective. But it doesn't feel like it should be as good as it is, but it's very --
Hanz:
It's my version of a low kick.
Ursa:
Yeah. It's pretty bad.
Ursa's Intro into the Video Realm
VeVe [to Ursa]:
I wanted to ask you, what was the thing where you went from coming to training sessions and hovering on the edges, what was the catalyst to jumping in and doing the videos?
Ursa:
I think it was actually the other way for me. I think I was attracted to the video work. I was like: yeah, I want to be a star, put me on camera. And then I got thoroughly beaten, and I was like: hmmm, I guess I'm going to have to do some work if I don't want this to happen all the time.
So videos have kind of been a motivation for me to train, more than the other way around. I had desire before [to train], but I wasn't making it a priority. And having the videos as a thing that's like, oh you have this thing coming up on this date, makes me more accountable to coming to practices.
Hanz:
That is a good motivation: oh I have a competitive match coming up, on this date, vs this person --
Ursa:
I don't want to look like a fool. I don't want to submit to these body scissors, so I better learn how to get out of them. When is that coming out, by the way [Ursa vs Hanz]? I'm curious to see it. And VeVe wasn't around for it.
VeVe:
No, I was away on tour, but I've heard a bit.
Ursa:
I feel like for a novice I did pretty well.
Hanz:
You really did, actually. It was a tough match.
Ursa:
You came out hard, too.
VeVe:
He was feeling threatened.
Ursa:
Yeah, apparently. It was not just aggressive cuddling.
Hanz:
It's a little different from those rare times when I'm actually at practice. It's a different sort of energy, so...
Ursa:
The question is: what was the motivation to start videoing? I've always been interested in fetish work, to be honest, and it's something that always sounded fun to me, but I do have hang-ups, like any body else, or any body with my upbringing maybe. And this seemed like a really fun and safe way to get into it.
But I don't know if there was a moment. I do remember I was like: oh tell me more. We had brunch, we met for brunch at a very busy restaurant-bar. We discussed fetish work. And I was like: ok, I really still don't understand this, but I'm not going to understand it unless I try it. So... This wrestling stuff has definitely been a challenge for me, and I like challenges. And so, this feels scary to me, so I think I need to do it.
Hanz:
Rising to the challenge.
Ursa:
Yeah.
VeVe:
We had thing about just getting started: doing competitive matches vs doing domination or fantasy stuff. This is something I'm still going back and forth on, as we often get new people getting involved. I'm like: what's the best way to start people out? And I imagine it does vary for different people, like [for example,] Oh, I'm super comfortable as a physical person jumping in, or I'm super comfortable as an actress, or whatever.
But how was that for you, being like: here's a competitive match where you're going to fight somebody. Or: here's a scenario or a role, or here's some body to dominate?
Ursa:
Yeah. So, for me, knowing so little about wrestling when I started, I was like: I don't know how to dominate someone with wrestling. I don't know what a submission is, I don't know what looks convincing and what doesn't. So, competitive was a better way for me to start, because then you just go and do what you can.
If you're dominating, you're more in charge, the focus is on you. You have to know what you're doing a little bit. And I wasn't ready to do that in a wrestling context. So, competitive was the better way for me to enter. Until I knew a little bit more of what I'm doing. Honestly, and to know what bodies can take. Doing a little research and development.
VeVe:
I know when I started out, I thought that we were going to be like all really known for being super real and competitive all the time. And that was one of the first conceptual organizing principles for us. But as soon as we started doing that and people started to see and notice even a little bit, fans write in and suggestions come in, and it turns out that competitive was not the only thing that people wanted. So it was a great way to start out and to learn a foundation of moves and skills and learn that they can be applied in so many ways.
Ursa:
I'm kind of at a 180 now in that I'm like: competitive, that sounds hard! And a little more nerve-wracking, because you do have skin in the game, you have to prove yourself, or take a little bit of an ego bashing, or a physical bashing that goes with the ego bashing.
So, the more I know now, I'm like: yeah, let me dominate that person, that sounds great! I really actually want to do more scenario customs with more plot, and femme fatale, and assassins, and I want my fingers in that. That sounds so fun to me. If anyone's listening who wants them, let me know...
Hanz:
It's good you kind of start out with a base thing, the one thing, and slowly start branching out into other styles or other things. It's always kind of fun to see people's personalities develop that way too. It's like: oh, it started with competitive wrestling, and bondage wrestling...
and, to the point where it's like: there's an artwork of me and you [VeVe] that somebody made... it's like a poster. And it's really cool. Wow, somebody drew this and made this picture of us from, you know, that they took from a video still from the end of one of our bondage wrestling matches.
Ursa:
I love fan art.
Hanz:
It's like influencing people. Influencing other people's creativity...
Ursa:
Or inspiring people, even.
Ideas and Inspiration
Hanz:
It's pretty cool to think about that, the stuff that goes out there and inspires other people to create things.
VeVe:
I've had a very interesting that that happens with people sending in custom video requests. And sometimes then you make the video and, if they agree it's ok, we'll put that out to the public, and other people will see that and send in custom requests based on the other person's requests, and they'll almost get into a dialogue, tweaking the scenario... among multiple people.
Ursa:
Oh, they don't know it, but they're part of the story. Oh, interesting.
VeVe:
And sometimes the character created by one person gets put into someone else's thing, same costume or this story, this character persona situation, is going to morph again over here. I don't think any of the guys have necessarily realized, but I'm sure if they ever met up, they could write wonderful collaborative fiction together.
Ursa:
Man, I have so many idea. If I had a camera man and a co-star at the ready, man, you would see some crazy stuff, world. I've got ideas for days.
Hanz:
That could probably be arranged.
VeVe:
I think you've kind of got that. Ursa: I have lots of ideas.
Hanz:
You should make some of them. Put them out there, see what comes back. Ursa: I'm always curious how things will be received, too.
VeVe:
You could find out that people might start feedbacking. Just put out one kernel and see what --
Ursa:
Ok, this would take more people, but, on the train on the way here -- do you want to hear my idea? So, this was a silly one that I would call "Ursa-locks and the Three Chairs." In which I would be a Goldilocks character and try three different men's faces to sit on, to find the one that's just right.
Hanz:
Wow.
Ursa:
It'd be so cute, right? These are the kinds of things I think of on the train. One would be too pointy, maybe. One would be too... flat? One would be just right, and I'd spend the most time there until maybe I broke it... I don't know...
Hanz:
.. broke their face...
Ursa:
...Yeah... We talked about having a very proper tea party, but having faces to sit on, instead of chairs.
VeVe:
I really want to do that.
Ursa:
It would be so cute. I have such cute tea dresses. I want that to happen. ... I've also been seeing other people doing some giantess stuff and some remote controlling stuff. The mesmerizing sort of things. And that stuff looks really fun.
VeVe:
And some of that you can do without any camera person... POV.
Fielding a Question
Ursa:
Do we have any Twitter questions?
VeVe:
I know we have the question as to whether you've done any arm wrestling.
Ursa:
I have done some armwrestling. Lana Luxor and I did a 5-minute armwrestling video. And, friend, she is so F-ing strong. She's got built arms. It was a battle. So I did some armwrestling with her. I had a double-session with Sweetie and a very large man, and I don't think we did armwrestling, but we did tried to hang off of his arms, which was fun, and double bearhugged him.. I've done a lot more bearhugs as far as feats of strength go. I've been doing a lot of bearhugging, which is fun. Hanz and I have an unnamed date for a bearhug-off. Less armwrestling, though, I'm curious, now that I've been training a little more. How strong I am...
VeVe:
You've shot with Amazon Annie, who is a bit of an armwrestling champ. But you didn't take her own...
Ursa:
I did a lift and carry with her, where she lifted me, which was so fun. And impressive. She was dressed as either superwoman or wonder woman, and she had these 4 inch heels, I was like: I can't get up there, you are too tall now. So she took them off.
[Regarding questions], you can always find me on the Doom Maidens website and e-mail me questions. And maybe we will talk about them on a separate podcast.
VeVe:
Well, we've discussed your entry onto the wrestling scene and tonight your entry onto the podcast as well. Welcome Ursa.
Ursa:
Thank you. Everyone I've worked with has been so nice, and it's been really nice coming into this very accepting, and warm, encouraging environment. Except for Hanz. ha ha.
Hanz:
I do get a lot of smack talk.
VeVe:
It's not all from Lana, either.
Hanz:
It's not all from Lana. But she is relentless.
Ursa:
Yeah, I heard that you have to do more squats now, something about Queen Beth.
VeVe:
I heard she sent you some intimidation photos.
Hanz:
She sent me a photo of her from Monday, of her posing over the final score. Kind of a calling-out.
Ursa:
I'd watch that match. Queen Beth vs Hanz. But the Monday matches, whew [Sweetie, Lana, Taylor, Queen Beth]. I was tired after it, and I didn't even wrestle.
VeVe:
All right, we're going to sign off. Hope you enjoyed.
Ursa:
Thanks for tuning in.
So, we were going to speak a little bit about being a new wrestler, new-ish, coming into the session and video world now. It's cool because we have someone who is experiencing being new to wrestling now, and 2 people who've experienced a while ago and can refer to earlier experiences for a bit more perspective now. [...]
How are you finding entering the wrestling scene, Ursa?
Ursa:
Can we break it down?
VeVe:
So how did it come to pass that you got involved with this anyway?
Ursa:
It's a been like a slow approach for me. I joke that I'm very cautious about doing things, and then I jump in 100%.
With wrestling, I went to a beginner workshop a couple years ago at least, and before that I had a boyfriend who was a wrestler, and we would tussle around a bit, which was really fun. But also I got really annoyed that I couldn't really match him at all, which was somewhat fun, but at a point I was like, eh, hm, I'm tired of this. So I went to a beginner workshop that you all were having, and it was crazy to me.
It was crazy. I grew up as a theatre kind, as a musician, as a swimmer, which is the least contact of all sports, you're not even in contact with the ground.
Anyhow, so it was just crazy touching people in new ways, and having my weight be an advantage, where in other sports, and in life as a woman, you try to make your body smaller, not overwhelm people. So being in wrestling, especially this kind of wrestling, is a total flip of the script where that's concerned, and that's been pretty fun.
Hanz:
Were you nervous about it at first, going from the beginner workshop and jumping into the videos and having a public persona?
Ursa:
Yeah, totally, I was terrified. Just going to the first workshop was kind of terrifying. And then I was like, oh these people are nice, I don't know about this wrestling thing, but I like the people. And then I kind of slowly came back, once in a while, for over a year, and then...
The video making I was nervous about, but even more than that, once I started practicing and then I had my first competitive match, that was maybe the most nervous I'd been so far. And it was against -- it was from the live event last fall -- with Kari. Well, that was that one I was --
Hanz:
That was your first one?
Ursa:
Well, first, I fought Aqua X before that. But she's very small and inexperienced, so it was like this will probably be ok. And it was still hard match.
But then I'd been training a bit and I was going to be fighting Kari. And at that point I felt like I actually had some skin in the game. 'Cause I was like I know a couple things, like if I lose this, then that'll be terrible. And it's two 8 or 10 minute rounds. I think it was 8 that day. And I was like, oh, that's really long. And it's live, so there's that added pressure. So I was super nervous for that.
VeVe:
That's like how you felt going into the Aqua match vs the Kari match. But then doing the Aqua match vs the Kari match, how does that compare?
Ursa:
The Aqua match -- she was very squirmy and energetic, and I had to keep moving the whole time. And I learned a lot. I think we both learned a lot through doing during the match, which I see happening with other beginning wrestlers: someone tries a thing, and you're like oh that worked for them, and so you try it on them. Or you're getting somewhere with one thing, and then they adjust. So I feel like I learned a lot, but had to keep the momentum up.
By the time I wrestled Kari, she had already wrestled Sweetie Dreams, I think, and maybe someone else also? And she was pretty beat [tired]. So, I went in really, really nervous, and then as we got going, I was like, oh, she's a lot lower energy at this point, so how do I navigate that? She was doing a lot of turtle defense [on elbows and knees in a ball], which I had never seen before.
She's like 280 lbs maybe, so to break down that kind of turtle, I was just hanging on her, like I don't know what I'm doing. But trying to work what I'd learned without -- I don't know -- she's a visitor, she's visiting, I don't want to make it horrible for her. If that makes sense. So, they were different matches, for sure.
How about you guys, do you remember?
Hanz and VeVe Give Their First Impressions
Hanz:
I remember. I wore a mask for the first couple years. That's how nervous I was about doing videos.
VeVe:
Yeah, the first video match that I did was against Veronica Vicious, who was a founding member of the original Doom Maidens, back in the day.
When we first started out -- doing videos was something that Hanz had to be our consultant about, because we hadn't quite figured out how to do that fro ourselves. So, Hanz was the cameraman of the hour. And we didn't have a format, we were just going to try this for the first time ever, and we went, I think, for 30 minutes straight, or maybe there was a short break. But it was exhausting, it was wild.
Veronica and I were both really new to wrestling at the time, and something that I think people only learn later is conserving energy at all. So that was 100% full tilt the whole time, just like murderous.
And I think, you know, it was probably a really exciting match, looking back, but it's also one that I'm really glad has mostly sort of disappeared from the internet because one of the things I also hadn't really learned yet in my novicedom was: I wore this awful tank top, tie dye, and I had an awful haircut. It was very learning experience.
Ursa:
Had you been training BJJ or any sort of wrestling before that?
VeVe:
That was before I started training formally, but when we were just first founding Doom Maidens, we were doing our own practice sessions. So there were a couple people who knew a bit more than I did. So we were showing up for these little get-together self-training. ... So, we knew just that much, a little bit.
Ursa:
Just enough to be dangerous to each other?
VeVe:
I think maybe knowing almost anything can help be a little less dangerous. I know the first couple times I wrestled I did jump in with zero training whatsoever, and one of the first things I thought: I should start learning stuff to be less dangerous.
On Learning and Improving and Trying New Things
Ursa:
Yeah. It's funny how just a little bit of knowledge takes you a long way. My first-FIRST competitive match was with Sweetie Dreams, and I had no idea what I was in for.
VeVe:
Oh, I remember. That was shocking to you.
Ursa: It was shocking to me! Cause I had only wrestled her before in practice, and wrestled other people who were very kindly calibrating their skill level to mine. And so, I was like, wait, but it's a video -- you actually use all your skill? I thought it was going to be acting. Just a little bit. So I didn't know how much I didn't know.
She got me with so many smothers, so I was like, oh my god, I can't breathe, rather than I shall turn my head now and be able to breathe.
VeVe:
That's a great thing about doing matches: you learn what you need to work on. It's also a great thing about when you're new: you can learn something every day that's super helpful. Whereas, when you've been doing it for a long time, it takes so much more investment to make small improvement. When you know nothing, everything is a giant improvement. It's a fun time. You really see advancement quickly.
Hanz:
It's true. At first you're just improving by leaps and bounds, and then it gets to a point where you really have to study. Heh.
Ursa:
And you're also just improving incrementally at that point, too, right? It's like [hand gesture curve]?
Hanz:
I've still got plenty to learn.
VeVe: [to Hanz]
We tease you that you neither train nor ever change anything.
Hanz:
I don't.
VeVe:
So you can get better at the 2 things you do.
Hanz:
Yep. Scissors and arm triangles.
VeVe:
You're the same wrestler every time.
Hanz:
But they work.
Ursa:
You just rely on everyone else to change.
Hanz:
I'm the video game play who plays the fighting game and just hits "B" [button] all the time. Just like a constant low kick, and the other person gets pissed, like: why don't you do any real moves? Well, why don't you stop the low kick first? [...]
Ursa:
So Hanz, you started masked?
Hanz:
I did. That was the only way I could convince myself to do videos and put them out there. Since then, I've actually gone and taken most of those down and away. After a while, I didn't like the way the mask looked, and as a fan as well of mixed videos, I always like mixed videos where you can see both people's faces, and see the emotions of the match. The mask was kind of taking away from that.
Ursa:
I've also heard people say that if the man is masked and is beaten, then he has no skin in the game. Right? You can't be properly humiliated if you're masked.
Hanz:
It's like a shield to hide behind. No just out there. But yeah, I finally decided to do one without the mask. It was actually for you guys, against Orlandoe, and I remember being really nervous about it, like, oh, I'm going to do a non-masked one. So we did the match, and I saw it when it was done, watched it, then I was like, yes, this looks better, I like it better. I'm just going to do this from now on. But it's scary at first. A little bit.
VeVe:
What was the tipping or trigger point thing that made you say: I'm going to try this?
Hanz:
I think I just got to the point where I would see -- cause I was doing videos for my own store at that point -- and they all had the mask on, and I would watch them back, and I would be like: I would like this video better, like -- I like stuff about my early videos, but the one thing I would change is I wish I wasn't wearing the mask. And also, it was hard to breathe in that thing. And I would breathe loudly. It was kind of Darth Vader-ish. So.... which was kind of distracting as well. So I was just like, you know, I'm going try it without the mask and see how it looks.
Ursa:
You've never gone back...
Hanz:
Nope.
Ursa:
Did you ever think you'd be making the kind of videos you've been making lately?
Hanz:
Ha. No, I didn't. So that's another whole step. Completely unmasked. That was actually less scary than taking the mask off the face. That was a much less scary step than removing the mask originally.
VeVe:
There's nothing more you can do about identity after you've shown the face.
Hanz:
Yeah. The mask is like your face is out there, and this is what everyone sees. [...]
Ursa:
With the sexier (unclothed) stuff -- I would love to feel like I could do that, but there's so much stigma around it, I think especially for women. There are plenty of women around who do it and are amazing, but, personally, that feel like a scarier step for me than doing regular sexy stuff with clothes.
Body Positivity, Confidence, and Being Yourself
Hanz:
You're always afraid people are going to shame you for it, right? But it can be a very body-positive kind of thing. That's the way I think about it.
Just sort of, growing up, it was always this shame with nudity or eroticism. And to get to just do it and put it out there is kind of freeing in a way. Just be like: no, this is a good thing, and I shouldn't have to be afraid that someone's going to make me feel ashamed of it. Like they shouldn't be able to make me feel ashamed of it.
So. Yeah. I thought about it for a long time: do I really want to do this? It's kind of a big step, and once I came to the conclusion, it's like: you grew up feeling ashamed of this, so this is kind of like stepping away from that, which is nice.
Ursa:
It can be empowering. Just talking about body-positivity, a lot of this wrestling has been therapeutic for me in a way, in that I'm like, yeah, this is my body, and it's not just thin, fit who can show their bodies in bikinis. I can also, and it's going to be wonderful. And it's out there for the world, and that's how it is. Fully own it. It can be good.
VeVe:
You can get a totally realistic assessment "by doing" of what you're body can do. And here's how everything feels, and here are my abilities, and here's me up against another person. And I think a lot of so many assumptions are out there. Even just today, after I've been doing this for some many years, I went into a session and got: "you're pretty strong for a girl." Just "by doing," people find out --
Ursa:
Have you seen my muscles? Have you seen them? They're still muscles, even though I have tits. It's crazy.
VeVe:
They work, and they move, and they do things. And by wrestling, you get rid of some of those assumptions. I can't do this. I can! I'm doing this right now.
Ursa:
I think it's something that you've challenged me a lot on. I'm like: my body doesn't do that! And you're like: just maybe keep trying. And then I'm like: oh, I can do it. It just took practice. Because my body's used to sitting at a desk and not squiggling under a human.
Also, it's so nice to get all of the positive reinforcements from fans. So when I meet people being like: oh my god, you're so gorgeous. And I'm like: yes I am, and people in the mid-west never appreciated me. I'm like: I was wasted on everyone else, and now I'm finally getting the recognition I feel like I deserved all along, and it's so nice. It's so nice getting that. So, thank you. And I'm like: I know, I know, and it's nice that you know too.
VeVe:
That's one thing I always say when I have a muscle worship fan. I'll get a couple questions, like: do you like being worshipped? I'm like: yeah, of course! And: "I so like your muscles" or "I so like your body." and I'm like: That's really nice, because I do! And I put a lot of work into doing it. So it's nice to know other people like what I like about myself. And that's pretty cool.
Ursa:
And I feel like in this work too, it's sort of a reflection -- and I'm going to get a little philosophical here -- but I feel like there's a fan for everything, there's a fan for every body type. Your fans may not be the same as my fans. But really, the more you are yourself, people like it. And I feel like that plays out in the real world too, in that you're like: well, if there's everyone who likes my body, maybe I don't need to try to be so one way or another in the world, and I can just be myself and somebody will like that.
It's a nice little playing out of that theory. Because people talk about, you know, oh, well, just be yourself, go all Hamlet, "This about all, to thine own self be true," but it's nice in this work to actually see that play out. And the more you are yourself, the more you share of yourself, people are like oh my god, you're amazing, and getting that immediate feedback, you're like, huh, yeah, all right, great!
Hanz:
Do you actually find in doing this that the confidence [you build] -- do you find that crossing over into your non-wrestling day-to-day life?
Ursa:
Yeah, I think it feed back and forth, you know. I think me feeling confident and good about myself allows me to do wrestling. And I think the more I do it, the more feedback I get that comes back and feeds the other. So I think it all kind of builds. And it gives me more confidence, and having more confidence gives me more wrestling mojo --
Hanz:
I've told a few people that part of the thing that made me jump off -- because I've always wanted to do this and try this, but I was always hesitant and nervous -- but the thing I always think to myself: when I get to the end of my life, when I'm in my deathbed, my worst fear would be looking back on my life and thinking there are all these things I wanted to try and never did it because I was too scared. If I could be in that moment and say: there are all these things I wanted to try and I tried then, even though I was scared and I did it anyway, at that point I would be happy and look back on my life.
Ursa:
No regrets.
Hanz:
Yeah, that was a faster way to say that.
Ursa:
I feel like another thing I've been learning in my own life and in wrestling is to deal with discomfort. Which I feel like in the US and Western civilization we're taught that if something's uncomfortable, you shy away from it, you don't do it. And just learning to be like: ah, I'm being choked right now, or, like in our match, I'm being body scissored right now, very hard, and I could tap right now, or if I just chill out, I could probably get out of this. So, that's a nice --
Hanz:
You're very resistant to my body scissors.
Ursa:
Yes! I'm so happy. I actually said I was injured from that match, and I was afraid it was from the body scissors, but it was just a muscle thing. But at first I was like: oh no, did I resist too much? I just resisted appropriately.
Hanz:
I always try to put those things on slow, you know. So, rib stuff...
Ursa:
I'm not saying it was pleasant. So, when you put the video out, and people buy it, and you listen to the noises I was making, I think you'll be able to tell that was not pleasant. I was like, what are these noises coming out of me? They sound really sad and unhappy.
VeVe:
Then afterwards, maybe some happy noises for escaping...
Ursa:
Yeah. Like so many people have fallen victim to your body scissors. You know, it's kind of a cheap shot. It's very effective. But it doesn't feel like it should be as good as it is, but it's very --
Hanz:
It's my version of a low kick.
Ursa:
Yeah. It's pretty bad.
Ursa's Intro into the Video Realm
VeVe [to Ursa]:
I wanted to ask you, what was the thing where you went from coming to training sessions and hovering on the edges, what was the catalyst to jumping in and doing the videos?
Ursa:
I think it was actually the other way for me. I think I was attracted to the video work. I was like: yeah, I want to be a star, put me on camera. And then I got thoroughly beaten, and I was like: hmmm, I guess I'm going to have to do some work if I don't want this to happen all the time.
So videos have kind of been a motivation for me to train, more than the other way around. I had desire before [to train], but I wasn't making it a priority. And having the videos as a thing that's like, oh you have this thing coming up on this date, makes me more accountable to coming to practices.
Hanz:
That is a good motivation: oh I have a competitive match coming up, on this date, vs this person --
Ursa:
I don't want to look like a fool. I don't want to submit to these body scissors, so I better learn how to get out of them. When is that coming out, by the way [Ursa vs Hanz]? I'm curious to see it. And VeVe wasn't around for it.
VeVe:
No, I was away on tour, but I've heard a bit.
Ursa:
I feel like for a novice I did pretty well.
Hanz:
You really did, actually. It was a tough match.
Ursa:
You came out hard, too.
VeVe:
He was feeling threatened.
Ursa:
Yeah, apparently. It was not just aggressive cuddling.
Hanz:
It's a little different from those rare times when I'm actually at practice. It's a different sort of energy, so...
Ursa:
The question is: what was the motivation to start videoing? I've always been interested in fetish work, to be honest, and it's something that always sounded fun to me, but I do have hang-ups, like any body else, or any body with my upbringing maybe. And this seemed like a really fun and safe way to get into it.
But I don't know if there was a moment. I do remember I was like: oh tell me more. We had brunch, we met for brunch at a very busy restaurant-bar. We discussed fetish work. And I was like: ok, I really still don't understand this, but I'm not going to understand it unless I try it. So... This wrestling stuff has definitely been a challenge for me, and I like challenges. And so, this feels scary to me, so I think I need to do it.
Hanz:
Rising to the challenge.
Ursa:
Yeah.
VeVe:
We had thing about just getting started: doing competitive matches vs doing domination or fantasy stuff. This is something I'm still going back and forth on, as we often get new people getting involved. I'm like: what's the best way to start people out? And I imagine it does vary for different people, like [for example,] Oh, I'm super comfortable as a physical person jumping in, or I'm super comfortable as an actress, or whatever.
But how was that for you, being like: here's a competitive match where you're going to fight somebody. Or: here's a scenario or a role, or here's some body to dominate?
Ursa:
Yeah. So, for me, knowing so little about wrestling when I started, I was like: I don't know how to dominate someone with wrestling. I don't know what a submission is, I don't know what looks convincing and what doesn't. So, competitive was a better way for me to start, because then you just go and do what you can.
If you're dominating, you're more in charge, the focus is on you. You have to know what you're doing a little bit. And I wasn't ready to do that in a wrestling context. So, competitive was the better way for me to enter. Until I knew a little bit more of what I'm doing. Honestly, and to know what bodies can take. Doing a little research and development.
VeVe:
I know when I started out, I thought that we were going to be like all really known for being super real and competitive all the time. And that was one of the first conceptual organizing principles for us. But as soon as we started doing that and people started to see and notice even a little bit, fans write in and suggestions come in, and it turns out that competitive was not the only thing that people wanted. So it was a great way to start out and to learn a foundation of moves and skills and learn that they can be applied in so many ways.
Ursa:
I'm kind of at a 180 now in that I'm like: competitive, that sounds hard! And a little more nerve-wracking, because you do have skin in the game, you have to prove yourself, or take a little bit of an ego bashing, or a physical bashing that goes with the ego bashing.
So, the more I know now, I'm like: yeah, let me dominate that person, that sounds great! I really actually want to do more scenario customs with more plot, and femme fatale, and assassins, and I want my fingers in that. That sounds so fun to me. If anyone's listening who wants them, let me know...
Hanz:
It's good you kind of start out with a base thing, the one thing, and slowly start branching out into other styles or other things. It's always kind of fun to see people's personalities develop that way too. It's like: oh, it started with competitive wrestling, and bondage wrestling...
and, to the point where it's like: there's an artwork of me and you [VeVe] that somebody made... it's like a poster. And it's really cool. Wow, somebody drew this and made this picture of us from, you know, that they took from a video still from the end of one of our bondage wrestling matches.
Ursa:
I love fan art.
Hanz:
It's like influencing people. Influencing other people's creativity...
Ursa:
Or inspiring people, even.
Ideas and Inspiration
Hanz:
It's pretty cool to think about that, the stuff that goes out there and inspires other people to create things.
VeVe:
I've had a very interesting that that happens with people sending in custom video requests. And sometimes then you make the video and, if they agree it's ok, we'll put that out to the public, and other people will see that and send in custom requests based on the other person's requests, and they'll almost get into a dialogue, tweaking the scenario... among multiple people.
Ursa:
Oh, they don't know it, but they're part of the story. Oh, interesting.
VeVe:
And sometimes the character created by one person gets put into someone else's thing, same costume or this story, this character persona situation, is going to morph again over here. I don't think any of the guys have necessarily realized, but I'm sure if they ever met up, they could write wonderful collaborative fiction together.
Ursa:
Man, I have so many idea. If I had a camera man and a co-star at the ready, man, you would see some crazy stuff, world. I've got ideas for days.
Hanz:
That could probably be arranged.
VeVe:
I think you've kind of got that. Ursa: I have lots of ideas.
Hanz:
You should make some of them. Put them out there, see what comes back. Ursa: I'm always curious how things will be received, too.
VeVe:
You could find out that people might start feedbacking. Just put out one kernel and see what --
Ursa:
Ok, this would take more people, but, on the train on the way here -- do you want to hear my idea? So, this was a silly one that I would call "Ursa-locks and the Three Chairs." In which I would be a Goldilocks character and try three different men's faces to sit on, to find the one that's just right.
Hanz:
Wow.
Ursa:
It'd be so cute, right? These are the kinds of things I think of on the train. One would be too pointy, maybe. One would be too... flat? One would be just right, and I'd spend the most time there until maybe I broke it... I don't know...
Hanz:
.. broke their face...
Ursa:
...Yeah... We talked about having a very proper tea party, but having faces to sit on, instead of chairs.
VeVe:
I really want to do that.
Ursa:
It would be so cute. I have such cute tea dresses. I want that to happen. ... I've also been seeing other people doing some giantess stuff and some remote controlling stuff. The mesmerizing sort of things. And that stuff looks really fun.
VeVe:
And some of that you can do without any camera person... POV.
Fielding a Question
Ursa:
Do we have any Twitter questions?
VeVe:
I know we have the question as to whether you've done any arm wrestling.
Ursa:
I have done some armwrestling. Lana Luxor and I did a 5-minute armwrestling video. And, friend, she is so F-ing strong. She's got built arms. It was a battle. So I did some armwrestling with her. I had a double-session with Sweetie and a very large man, and I don't think we did armwrestling, but we did tried to hang off of his arms, which was fun, and double bearhugged him.. I've done a lot more bearhugs as far as feats of strength go. I've been doing a lot of bearhugging, which is fun. Hanz and I have an unnamed date for a bearhug-off. Less armwrestling, though, I'm curious, now that I've been training a little more. How strong I am...
VeVe:
You've shot with Amazon Annie, who is a bit of an armwrestling champ. But you didn't take her own...
Ursa:
I did a lift and carry with her, where she lifted me, which was so fun. And impressive. She was dressed as either superwoman or wonder woman, and she had these 4 inch heels, I was like: I can't get up there, you are too tall now. So she took them off.
[Regarding questions], you can always find me on the Doom Maidens website and e-mail me questions. And maybe we will talk about them on a separate podcast.
VeVe:
Well, we've discussed your entry onto the wrestling scene and tonight your entry onto the podcast as well. Welcome Ursa.
Ursa:
Thank you. Everyone I've worked with has been so nice, and it's been really nice coming into this very accepting, and warm, encouraging environment. Except for Hanz. ha ha.
Hanz:
I do get a lot of smack talk.
VeVe:
It's not all from Lana, either.
Hanz:
It's not all from Lana. But she is relentless.
Ursa:
Yeah, I heard that you have to do more squats now, something about Queen Beth.
VeVe:
I heard she sent you some intimidation photos.
Hanz:
She sent me a photo of her from Monday, of her posing over the final score. Kind of a calling-out.
Ursa:
I'd watch that match. Queen Beth vs Hanz. But the Monday matches, whew [Sweetie, Lana, Taylor, Queen Beth]. I was tired after it, and I didn't even wrestle.
VeVe:
All right, we're going to sign off. Hope you enjoyed.
Ursa:
Thanks for tuning in.
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